beyond walls

On leadership, institutional change, and finding meaning in micro-interactions Lacy Schutz has spent more than fifteen years leading cultural institutions in the United States — and the last year and a half doing something harder: stepping back to ask why so many of them struggle to live up to their own values. 

A former leader at the Museum of the City of New York and Shaker Museum, Lacy recently relocated to Saudi Arabia to work in a cultural ecosystem still in formation — one being built at a speed and scale unlike anything she’d encountered before. The experience clarified a lot. About what she’s best at, what institutions get wrong, and what it actually takes to lead people well. In this conversation, she talks about the hidden cost of scarcity culture, why burnout is a systems problem and not a personal failure, and what it looks like to create the conditions where people can do their best work without pretending their lives don’t exist. She also reflects on the moments — large and small — that remind her why access to art and culture matters at all. It’s a conversation about leadership, institutions, and the quiet power of getting the small things right. 

PROJECT INCLUSION: Tell us a little bit about what you’ve been up to lately?ell us a little bit about what you’ve been up to lately. 

LACY SCHUTZ: Right now I’m stepping back from a long career in arts and culture to really examine patterns in leadership, institutions, and what sustains people and systems — and to think about how to move forward professionally in a way that’s meaningful, productive, and stretches me further. About a year and a half ago, I came to Saudi Arabia to work in the field of art and culture, after 15-plus years in museums in the United States. I was genuinely excited by the scale of what’s being built here and the chance to engage with a cultural ecosystem still in formation. I thought: here’s an opportunity to start from scratch and ask, what works, what doesn’t, and how can we reimagine what this kind of institution can be — for the public, the community, tourists, all of it? The role I arrived for evolved fairly quickly into something more commercially oriented and operations-focused — not the kind of strategic institutional work I really enjoy and excel at. I stayed long enough to deliver real results, and I learned a lot. I tested myself in a very different context, both professionally and culturally. And in doing so, it clarified for me what my real strengths and interests are. It’s been humbling, sometimes uncomfortable, and ultimately extremely productive — because it’s helped me reconnect with the kind of work that feels both useful and sustainable. 

PROJECT INCLUSION: What is the work you’re thinking about shifting toward? 

LACY SCHUTZ: I find that I’m really at my best when I’m stepping into an organization that is at an inflection point — a place that needs some calm and some clarity. That’s the kind of work I want to be doing, and it can take many forms. Museums are obviously where much of my experience lives, but governance, change management, and transition work can be applied across a lot of different contexts. What resonates for me isn’t limited to museums — it’s any cultural setting, or really any context where the goal is making people’s lives better, whether that’s a commercial enterprise or a mission-driven one. 

PROJECT INCLUSION: Tell us about an unexpected reaction you’ve received in your work that you still think about. 

LACY SCHUTZ: There’s something I think about all the time. It happened when I was still in the US. We had a facilitated team session — one of those day-long things where someone comes in to help with team building and institutional understanding. He asked every staff member: what do you value most about working here? And one person said that what she valued most was that she never felt forced to choose between her work and her personal life. That meant more to me than almost anything anyone has ever said to me in a work context. We were a close team — not a family, I think that word is totally inappropriate in the workplace — but close in a way that allowed everyone to know what others were carrying, to recognize that people have real things going on in their lives and that it matters to show up for them. I later saw that same person show up for a young colleague dealing with unexpected loss. All of it reinforced something I deeply believe: as a leader, it’s our job to create humane, respectful conditions. Giving people the leeway to deal with what’s happening in their lives doesn’t weaken an organization — it creates resilience and a deep sense of shared responsibility and accountability. I was really proud of that moment and that team. 

PROJECT INCLUSION: What’s something you wish more people would talk about? 

LACY SCHUTZ: I wish we talked more about how institutions — museums, but also any values-driven organization — ask people to live by one set of values inside the structure of that organization, but then reward the opposite. And then we blame individuals when that strain breaks them. A lot of organizations say they care about people, equity, sustainability, work-life balance — all of it. But the systems being built still reward overwork and urgency. People burn out in those environments, and we treat that as a personal failure rather than a predictable systems outcome. There’s also this idea that scarcity is somehow noble — that doing more with less is a virtue rather than a structural deficit. I’ve seen how costly that belief is to the people operating within it. It’s not just about being well-intentioned. It’s about actually rethinking how we structure these organizations. 

PROJECT INCLUSION: If scarcity grows that gap, what have you noticed helps to close it? 

LACY SCHUTZ: People in leadership positions need a realistic sense of what people can actually achieve — and then they need to create the structures and environments in which people can achieve that. There’s this pervasive idea, not just in corporations but in museums too, that growth is always the goal: bigger, more, faster, forever. That’s simply not realistic in most situations. A museum can’t just keep collecting things indefinitely — what are you going to do with all of that? The belief that growth for growth’s sake is an inherent good is, I think, a significant part of what creates that gap in the first place. 

PROJECT INCLUSION: What strategies did you use as a leader to create that kind of balance? 

LACY SCHUTZ: In that particular team, and really in my leadership generally, it comes down to holding two things at once: high standards and genuine flexibility. I’ve always had very high standards for my team — but I’m equally clear that people shouldn’t have to pretend there aren’t things happening in their lives that affect their work. It’s about making room for flexibility without making anyone feel like they have to ask for special treatment or hesitate to bring something up. From a leadership perspective, it’s about modeling boundaries. Being present and checking in without prying. Trusting people to manage their own responsibilities — professional and personal. This became especially clear during Covid. There was so much we were all carrying — real and psychological. But because the team knew what was expected of them and felt genuinely valued, they were able to find their way through without it breaking anyone. 

PROJECT INCLUSION: What incredible shifts in leadership have you seen post-Covid? 

LACY SCHUTZ: It’s exactly what I’m talking about with flexibility. Nobody was exempt from the impact of Covid — from how it felt, how it changed how we work. And I think a lot of people now understand that flexibility isn’t a concession; it’s a necessity. Working from home, for instance, doesn’t mean being unproductive. But I think Covid also opened an era in which everything feels much more fluid — and that’s a little bit scary and ultimately, I think, a good thing. Things used to be much more hierarchical and rigid. Now there’s a real understanding that things can change overnight, that we aren’t fixed points on a map. I’m seeing a lot of discussion about fractional leadership, for example — both pro and con. Some say it’s exploitative, that organizations should commit. But I think for the way people work now, and for the flexibility organizations genuinely need, it can be quite good — if the person in that role also needs that kind of flexibility. 

PROJECT INCLUSION: What do you do to set the stage for great conversations — inside the organization, with the community, with visitors?

 LACY SCHUTZ: I had a conversation with a young Saudi colleague last year. She’d come to me for some advice, and she said she really appreciated the way I held space for everyone to say what they were thinking, to bring their ideas forward — and that I had real faith in her judgment. That was particularly meaningful to me, because in many organizational contexts, especially hierarchical ones, even small decisions have to travel all the way up the ladder. She had never experienced having space to make her own decisions or arrive at her own solutions. That was something entirely new for her. So I think that whenever you’re in any kind of conversation, creating that space — where people feel trusted to think and to decide — sets the stage for a great exchange, whatever the topic. 

PROJECT INCLUSION: How do you invite that kind of dialogue? 

LACY SCHUTZ: It’s fundamentally about relationship-building over time. You can’t walk into a room with people you don’t know and say, tell me what you think. Especially early-career people aren’t necessarily going to feel comfortable doing that. It’s a process of building trust — through clarity, through boundaries, through helping people become genuinely invested in their work by realizing they have real autonomy and agency. One small thing I’m always conscious of: where I sit when I walk into a room. There are times when it’s appropriate to sit at the head of the table — when the message needs to be, I’m in charge. But a lot of the time, it’s more powerful to just take a seat somewhere else at the table, so the physical arrangement doesn’t reinforce a hierarchy that might not serve the conversation. I’ve found that to be a surprisingly significant thing. 

PROJECT INCLUSION: Where do you see museums and cultural institutions struggling most? What does the museum world need to let go of to move forward? 

LACY SCHUTZ: I saw an article just today about a museum in Ireland that integrated programming around women’s experiences — but went further than just engaging with the concept. They built into the whole program a way to actively support women who are, right now, victims of domestic abuse. They weren’t just hanging something on a wall and inviting a conversation. They were doing something tangible and meaningful in people’s lives. I was astonished by it, because my feeling for a long time has been that where museums really fall short is in being genuine parts of their communities. When I was at Shaker Museum, we were planning an entirely new museum and doing a lot of community canvassing. We thought about what the Shakers represented — and one thing that came up is that they were extraordinary business people. That gave us an opportunity to think about financial literacy programming, things that could genuinely help people with what they actually need in their present lives. The other thing that’s critically important is that museums need to help people imagine a better future. We talk about the past, sometimes the present — but the point is to spark imagination and conversation about what a shared future could look like. That’s the real work. 

PROJECT INCLUSION: What are you thinking about when it comes to translating values — and what’s next for you? 

LACY SCHUTZ: I’ve been thinking a lot about very small, meaningful spheres of influence. We’re living in a moment of constant crisis — everything that’s happening across the globe is overwhelming. I don’t think any of us has the capacity to metabolize all of it, all the time, without becoming numb or performative. I keep coming back to the idea that the only thing we can really control are our interactions — micro-interactions, from the way we show up for our team to the way we treat a delivery person to a random encounter on the street. There’s dignity and agency in how we do that. That’s how we keep our own ethics and values alive. It’s how we show our integrity. It doesn’t solve everything, but it’s a place where helplessness doesn’t have the last word. 

PROJECT INCLUSION: Have you witnessed times when access to art and culture has genuinely changed how people connect or see the world? 

LACY SCHUTZ: At the Museum of the City of New York, we had a really committed education team. The museum is located in East Harlem, and there were programs specifically designed to help students prepare for the Regents exam, along with internship opportunities and deep academic work with kids who went to school right across the street. That had real, measurable impact in their lives. But one moment that stays with me is smaller than that. I was visiting the Bronx Museum of Art — just as a visitor, enjoying the galleries. There was a little girl there with her mom and her brother, maybe seven or eight years old. At some point, she turned to her mother and said, I just love art. I love art. As a museum person, I almost burst into tears. This was a kid from the neighborhood, mom bringing her kids to the museum, and this girl was just full of passion and commitment. We always want to point to these gigantic, broad societal impacts. And what has been appealing about Saudi Arabia is exactly that — museums can be a fundamental part of a country’s rapid transformation, and that’s a powerful idea operating at a real societal level. But then you’ve also got this little kid who feels passion for a painting on a wall. Both things matter. Both things are the point. 

PROJECT INCLUSION: How is the role of art and culture changing — and how should we design for access differently? 

LACY SCHUTZ: What I see here in the Gulf region that I genuinely admire is an attempt to integrate art and culture far beyond museum walls. There’s a tremendous amount of public art and public festivals. Riyadh recently had a light festival — millions of people came to see these light sculptures over a week or two. There was a huge drone show at the launch, and vast numbers of Saudi families came with their kids, many of whom have probably never set foot in a museum. But the conditions were created for them to have access to and genuinely enjoy these art installations. You look at Abu Dhabi — the Louvre is there, the Guggenheim is opening soon, several other museums have just opened. There’s a real sense that art is essential to social cohesion and quality of life. In the US, it often feels like an afterthought — a luxury for a particular portion of the population. Here, there’s a genuine sense that this is for everybody, that it fundamentally improves everyone’s lives. That’s exciting to witness, and I think it’s genuinely new in our world. 

PROJECT INCLUSION: What’s a piece of advice that has stayed with you? 

LACY SCHUTZ: Before I got into museums, I was a fairly serious poet. I had a poetry mentor — sadly, he’s no longer with us — who said this to all of his students: find those with whom you have rapport and proceed, and never proceed with those with whom you don’t have rapport. I think about that all the time. This was maybe three decades ago, and he wasn’t just talking about art — he was talking about all of our relationships: professional, personal, romantic, whatever it is. When I look at my biggest missteps, they almost always come from ignoring that advice — from trying to force alignment where it doesn’t exist, or from not listening to my gut about a situation or a person. 

PROJECT INCLUSION: What’s the last piece of advice you gave someone? 

LACY SCHUTZ: I was talking with a young colleague who was wrestling with how to ask for more responsibility and more compensation. I’ve talked a lot of people through how to ask for a raise — especially women, who often have a much harder time asking for what they’re worth. She was feeling really conflicted about what it might mean for her and for the organization. What I tried to help her see was the difference between wanting to feel valued and feeling like she had to justify her worth. I told her: people shouldn’t be asked to sacrifice their sense of value in order to solve structural constraints. If an organization can’t fully support people at the level they’re worth, that’s something leadership has to reckon with — not something an employee should carry alone. 

PROJECT INCLUSION: What’s next for you? 

LACY SCHUTZ: I’m taking some time to really think through what I want to do next. I don’t know what that is yet. But I want it to be challenging and meaningful, and I want it to meet my expertise and strengths in a way that’s genuinely useful — to me and to whatever organization I’m part of. I’ve found through many years of professional life that I don’t necessarily want to commit to another permanent position unless I’m really certain it’s well-aligned with where I am, what I want, and what the institution needs. I’ve genuinely enjoyed this time in the Middle East because it’s felt portable. I’ve been able to travel extensively, for work and for pleasure, and I like this sense of uprootedness. It gives me a lot of space to think and to be creative. I’d like to keep that going. And the Middle East is a place where things are just changing so quickly — which must be a little disorienting for people who’ve lived here their whole lives. But for me, it’s such an exciting time. It’s a time to rethink ways of doing things that the West has been stuck in for centuries. It’s refreshing to see that it doesn’t have to be that way. There are other paths.